The consideration of changing from an opening invocation to a moment of silence comes after a StarNews report on a late-night board meeting in which commissioners vehemently opposed Commissioner Charles Warren’s request to allow outside clergy to pray before the board meetings. Traditionally the commissioners have given the invocation.
Commissioner Phil Norris, who is also a pastor, said Wednesday that, after much thought on the issue, he now thinks the board should hold a moment of silence instead of the prayer.
“I think, after thinking about this for some time, the way I see the Constitution it provides all of us with freedom of religion or freedom to not have any religion,” he said.
Norris’ original reaction to Warren’s request was: “If we do that, do we have to invite witches?”
A copy of the board’s agenda for Monday night’s meeting that was sent to the StarNews Wednesday has “moment of silence” in the place where the invocation used to be listed. But commissioners say they haven’t made a decision yet.
Commissioner Marty Cooke said the board members talked about it at their agenda meeting, which was held on Tuesday instead of Wednesday because the clerk to the board was going to be out of town. The StarNews did not receive prior notice that the meeting had been changed.
Cooke said four of the five commissioners who were present at the agenda meeting – all but commissioner Scott Phillips, who usually has to work during those meetings – talked about several alternatives.
“I think the jury is still out as far as what we will do,” he said.
Warren suggested after a closed session in May that the commissioners allow people outside the board to do the invocation.
Cooke’s reaction was: “If they have a Buddhist who comes in here and prays, I will walk out of here.”
Warren said he supports the moment of silence idea.
“I think that would give everybody an opportunity if they feel like they want to pray in their own beliefs,” he said.
Commissioners Chairman Bill Sue said he thinks the commissioners will talk about it during the meeting that starts at 6 p.m. Monday, though it is not listed as a discussion item on the agenda.
The issue of prayer in public meetings has become heated in North Carolina again since a Jan. 28 ruling in an American Civil Liberties Union lawsuit in Forsyth County. A U.S. District Court judge found that the use of sectarian invocations to open Forsyth County Board of Commissioners meetings violated the First Amendment. The decision reinforced a similar 2009 magistrate judge decision. As a result, the Forsyth commissioners stopped opening their meetings with prayer. The board, however, has voted to appeal the federal judge’s decision.
Cooke said he board members at the agenda meeting talked about one county that is considering going outside in the street to pray. He would not say what county that is.
Transcript
Editor’s note: The following transcript includes language that might be offensive to some religious groups.
Commissioners’ Chairman Bill Sue: Are you ready Debbie? Mr. Warren has asked to discuss an item so Mr. Warren the floor is yours.
Commissioner Charles Warren: Mr. Chairman, I’m basically, I’m still trying to keep the community involved in our board meetings and things of this nature. So I’m recommending that we invite different clergies, priests, rabbis throughout the community to come in and do our invocation of services.
Commissioner Phil Norris: If we do that do we have to invite witches and uh…
Commissioner Marty Cooke: My godson has a witch whose his mother in law…
County Attorney Huey Marshall: We’ve got the largest monestary of Buddhists between DC and Atlanta
Sue: Buddhists?
Commissioner Scott Phillips: Well, my take on it, I personally don’t care to have those in here either. I see it as a privilege. And I think since I’ve been here over half the time I’ve been asked to pray and I really do see it as a privilege. I see it as a witness and I think it’s good to have our public seeing that us sitting up here are god fearing Christians who pray. I wish the board room was full right now but I would like to continue the opportunity to pray in public. That’s my personal opinion.
Norris: My only concern is, it’s just like with anything else… If you open it up it’s open to everything and I have a problem with that. I don’t have a problem with… I’m not going to pray to any other god.
Cooke: If they have a Buddhist who comes in here and prays, I will walk out of here.
Norris: I’m not going to walk out but I’m not going to pray.
Cooke: I will. I will walk out.
Warren: New Hanover, that’s the way they bring in the clergies and other commissioners’ chambers bring in clergies to pray so I don’t see to me and if they bring in witches to pray, I guess they pray. That’s up to them. That’s not my god. So they pray to whoever they want. I just feel that it’s important that the community be included to come in and it doesn’t have anything to do with anybody else praying. You can pray to your god anytime you want. I’m just saying for the public. That’s my recommendation.
Sue: Marty? I think you’ve had your say.
Cooke: Yes.
Sue: Phil, you’ve had your say, open up Pandora’s box.
Norris: That’s my concern.
Scott: I’d like to have an opportunity to do it. That’s my stance on it.
Marty: Let me say one more thing. I’m amenable to the spirit of what you’re into, I am. I’m just having to look at the other side of the dynamic is that you’re going to get some guy that’s going to come in here whose a Baptist or Methodist or Presbyterian or Amery Zion. I have no problem in this world I am up and down. I’ll go to the service. I’ll be right there with them. I am on board. But I get somebody walking in here enchanting or whatever like that who says I got license to do it because and then I can’t. It’s incompatible to me because I’m a born again Christian. I can’t tolerate. I won’t tolerate. I’ll walk out. And if we pray. We all know we’re Christians. We are. When we pray, and I don’t mean to belabor it, when you pray, when I pray, when he prays. You know tonight he prayed a really good prayer and I struggle with it. He does it all the time. It’s probably routine for him. He said something that meant a lot. He said please help us make good decisions tonight. And I thought, that’s the meat of it. That’s what we’re trying to come after. And it isn’t an us versus you. That’s not it. It’s just, I am scared that I am going to have a Buddhist walk in here and I got to make a decision and I know Marty Cooke will walk slap out that door and a reporter will be into it and say why did you do it and I’ll say I won’t stand there and condone it. I won’t do it. And then I’ve already slapped everybody else in the face because I’ve made you mad and I’ve made everybody else made.
Norris: Huey’s about to die over there.
Laughter.
Phil: Well the fact of the matter is, we’re probably treading on thin legal ice to even do what we are doing.
Sue: That’s right. You want to call the question Charles?
Huey: ?? County spent $275,000 on a lawsuit.
Sue: But there were some different little wrinkles to theirs.
Noris: Why was that?
Huey: The complainant was Jewish. And she came in and said something. You know the first couple of times she didn’t say anything and finally she said this is offensive to me. I don’t think you should be doing that. I don’t think you should have a prayer where I’m required to join in. And two meetings later the chairman referred to her as a Jewish bitch.
Laughter.
Sue: Charles, you want to call it to a question?
Scott: I think Guilford County is in lawsuit right now for two witches that were and I mean that’s their spiritual term - they are professing witches - has taken Guilford County commissioners to court. But that’s a paycheck I’m willing to sign.
Sue: Huey, I talked to the legal and alliance Christian rights or whatever it is… and I talked to them for an extended period of time and they told me as long as I begin to pray as “may we pray” there was no problem. If you say “shall we pray,” that’s a no, no. And you’ll notice when they people of us pray here we say may we pray. And you’re legal, according to them. And those folks will help defend you.
Norris: But that’s my only problem Charles. I know if we open it up it’s going to have to go to everybody and I got a real problem with that. I’d assume we not even have a prayer but if that’s what we gotta do…
Charles: I call to question. Go ahead and vote on it.
Sue: All in favor of inviting all the clergy who wish to come in to offer our invocation say I
Charles: I
"Huey: The complainant was Jewish. And she came in and said something. You know the first couple of times she didn’t say anything and finally she said this is offensive to me. I don’t think you should be doing that. I don’t think you should have a prayer where I’m required to join in. And two meetings later the chairman referred to her as a Jewish bitch.
Laughter."
Jewish Bitch and laughter????
Is there anyone they don't hate?
http://www.starnewsonline.com/article/20100224/ARTICLES/100229858?p=3&tc=pg
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Yes, that was out of line...
Is it hate or fear?
~N2itive1~
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ignorance? intolerance?
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Name calling is extreme ......and it was said by a christian? Is this what the christians or christ based faith teach?
I read this on witchvox.com. The headline is what caught my attention....most are completely ignorant about witches or pagans in general but why the comment about "jewish bitch"?
And they know all they say is made public or can be made public.....
Maybe we're right on all ....hate, fear, ignorance and intolerance
Things are changing though and it's past time for that!
This shows though why many still have to hide their path and fear losing their jobs etc if anyone knows....
I'm reminded about a friend who had social services come to visit their home because someone at school called them because their son said he was pagan......
I don't think they called anyone a jewish bitch
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